Fact-ional Christianese Marriage Menders

By Danni Moss
Copyright protected, all rights reserved

Pastors, Christian counselors, Christian friends and family members are steeped in a system that has for centuries valued the institution of marriage over the lives of the people inside it. Unfortunately, this means when someone reaches the point where they must leave an abusive marriage they invariably face a barrage of well-meaning advice from these individuals who only want to help but have no idea how very much they are hurting.

When you are the one in that place, it can be almost impossible to separate the truth from the fiction. Knowing that your own flesh could lead you astray, you don’t know if you can trust yourself to judge correctly. What if all these voices are right and you are wrong after all?

I have started compiling this document using some of the things people have sent me that they are being told or that I remember being told. I will add to this as new things are sent to me. All items added to the list will be de-personalized – no names or personal information will be included!

PEOPLE SAY: God is a God of redemption. (Implying God wants to redeem this marriage from ruin.)

TRUTH: – yes, God is a redeemer! God redeemed me out of my abusive marriage and has given me a life of peace. He has become my husband (Isaiah 54) and provider until such time as He may choose to provide me with another human one. He is an awesome Redeemer!

PEOPLE SAY: God wants this marriage to work.

TRUTH: – but He won’t force anyone to change against their will because He made man with a free will to choose to disobey. And when Israel insisted on disobedience, God divorced her.

PEOPLE SAY: Miracles are possible.

TRUTH: – for those who believe and obey. But if one party doesn’t want to obey, no miracle will follow. And this isn’t a “miracle” case anyway. This is a case of disobedience or obedience. God is not going to reach down with a magic wand and fix it. He wants repentance and radical obedience – the hard stuff, not fairy fixes.

Pastors and churches love to believe in miracle fixes for marital discord. That’s pure bunk and emotionally manipulative sermon illustrations. When a spouse is walking in sin they don’t need a miracle. They need to repent and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

PEOPLE SAY: Your husband has realized his sin and is working on it.

TRUTH: – big secret here for the fully initiated: disobedient spouses always “realize their sin and work on it” when their spouse finally has had enough and leaves. Occasionally this is actually a genuine wake-up call and the repentance and change are true. Usually they are not. They are a manipulative gesture only. And pastors, churches, family and friends always fall for the manipulative gesture – always.

In fact, if this has been a seriously long-term issue, with many artificial repentances and returns to previous behavior, and the wife has reached the point of seeking a divorce, as I did, my answer to this was — if he is truly repentant he will correct his behavior and demonstrate his repentance in spite of our divorce because it is right, and reconciliation can take place later. There was nothing in the world to stop us from remarrying. But that would surely be a test of his sincerity. Sure enough, he stopped fighting me for custody and started pushing for our divorce to be finalized 8 or 9 months into the process because he had found someone he wanted to date (his fight was what was slowing the process down). He remarried 10 months after our divorce was finalized. He had no serious interest in, or intention of, reconciliation.

Some ways you can see through a repentance if it is fake:

Has he repented publically, telling everyone openly exactly what he has done to you and the children privately? Has he openly told people exactly how he has mistreated you? Most of the time they don’t do this; they will manage to save face and avoid actually telling the depth of what they have done because it would ruin their squeaky-clean image. Or they will only tell one or two individuals whom they know will never let it get out, but who will reveal there has been a “big confession” to go with that repentance to prove it is genuine – more image projection. This is a big sign it is not real.

Is he willing to accept all consequences for his behavior, including a lengthy separation, personal counseling for his behavior, not marriage counseling (because the problem isn’t the marriage, it is within him), even including a divorce if that is what happens, accepting that it is the consequence of his behavior? Is he willing to publically acknowledge this to family, friends and church?

Is he willing to submit to on-going accountability on a long-term basis for his private behavior, and allow you to report to his accountability partners about whether he is continuing in obedience?

Does his repentance have “cracks” in it? In other words, an insincere repentance is short-lived and generally has the purpose of manipulating the other spouse back into the relationship and manipulating the viewing audience onto his “side” of the issue. So the repentance may be one face in public and disappear in private with just you. Or it may be “sincere” until it doesn’t get what it wants and then slivers of the old person are visible when no one else can see.

PEOPLE SAY: God is about forgiveness and restoration.

TRUTH: – and He is also equally about justice, and standing up for the abused, and setting at liberty those who are bound, and hating treachery (Mal 2 – husbands who do violence to their marriage covenant), and believers judging the verbal abuser in the church and putting him out of fellowship (I Cor. 5:11), and I could go on and on. It is wrong to pick out two attributes of God to manipulate you – that is a sure indicator of condemnation and judgment that are not from God!

PEOPLE SAY: The marriage is sacred.

TRUTH: – now where exactly is that in the Bible? I don’t remember reading that translation. The verse they think they are quoting is Heb. 13:4 –

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

That verse means something entirely different than “marriage is sacred.” Marriage is honorable and fornication and adultery are not – plain and simple. The verse is a comparison – not a statement of the sacredness of marriage.

Life is sacred. God is sacred. His Word is sacred. My body is the temple of the Lord, as is yours. Surely the temple of the Lord is a sacred place.

And when an abuser constantly abuses that body with his words, he is literally killing you, the temple of God. Now that is a violation of what God holds sacred. Death and life are in the power of the tongue and science is proving that is true. I’ve had breast cancer. Do you need to wait until you come face to face with a literal, physical death? Because it will happen – the Word says so. It is only a matter of time.

PEOPLE SAY: You are one flesh. God says not to separate what He has joined together.

TRUTH: – this is one of my favorites! Yes! God said that! I wish the church would stand up and fight over this one! Because it is not the party who gets a legal document for protection who has done the separating – it is the party who has been doing violence to the marriage covenant day in and day out for years who has been tearing apart that one flesh relationship and has already thoroughly separated it. But the church wants to point the finger and lay the blame on the wrong shoulders! Mal. 2:13-17 describes this very well.

PEOPLE SAY: It takes two to make a marriage and it take two to break a marriage.

TRUTH: That’s a really cute saying but it’s a bunch of horse do-do. It takes two to make a marriage work but one person can destroy it single-handedly.

Saying it takes two people to break a marriage is as logical as saying it requires the collusion of both people for one spouse to murder the other. Proverbs says a foolish woman can tear down her house with her own hands. Surely a foolish man can do the same.

PEOPLE SAY: God hates divorce.

TRUTH: – this is from Mal. 2 and it is a mis-translation. The original language says God hates putting away and it is referring to men who abandoned their legal wives without giving them a certificate of divorce, leaving them without any provision or protection in a society where women were chattel and the property of men. These women were then not free to remarry so they were literally abandoned to be prey to the first man who came along to rape and pillage them. The statement that God hates divorce is one of the most common wrong teachings on marriage in the modern Christian church. God didn’t say that!

A possible alternate translation could be that these men did legally divorce their wives, though the word used is one which does not always mean a legal divorce, but that these divorces were without cause – treacherous divorces as the context plainly states.

In either case, God condemns the actions of these men for their treachery and for putting away. God’s focus is on their treachery and the violence they have done to their covenant relationship – not on the divorce itself, since the text does not say God hates divorce. God hates putting away – which transcends divorce, reaching back to the action of separating what God has joined; an action which far predates a legal document. Putting away reaches back to the violation of that one-flesh covenant that is inherent in abuse.

PEOPLE SAY: Think about the damage you’re doing to the kids.

TRUTH: – that’s a hard one because it strikes at the heart of any mother. Teens seem to be particularly hard, but then, I still have yet to deal with what will happen as my daughter gets old enough to truly process her parents’ divorce. But here’s what I see so far in my situation.

I have a 21-year-old son (as of 2008) who grew up as the butt of his father’s physical abuse. He was the primary target, while his younger brother was mostly protected (this is not unusual in an abuse situation – to have a primary target of violence and have one or more others protected). By the time he was 12 and had gained the ability to think abstractly, he figured out he actually hadn’t done anything to deserve to be treated this way and he started to talk and act back to his father in exactly the same way his father treated him.

This, of course, only made it worse for him because his father received this as gross disrespect (which it was). A teenager who swears and hits back is not only offensive to the father, but makes really good fodder to tell other people about when you leave out the part about how many times you have hit the kid and sworn at him first.

This son, naturally, hated church and God because, as he said in his own words, who needs another Father like that?

When I separated from his father when he was 13 he wanted me to get a divorce but I didn’t because of pressure from church – fear of man won that time. When I finally decided to get a divorce when this son was 18 his response was something along the lines of “it’s about time.”

Fortunately, he did accept Christ when he was 17, but he is going to have issues for a lifetime as a result of the abuse he experienced. He refuses to have anything to do with his dad. I had to convince him that he really could not exclude his father from his wedding. Now how’s that for damage?

Then there’s the second son. He was the protected one. He always denied the abuse; always. The next day after an incident, he would deny it had happened. In court, he testified to the judge that there had been no abuse in our home. Yes, he lied. When I asked him about it later, he said he does remember it but he believes I should not have gotten a divorce. I should have had more faith and trusted God.

So I worry about this child who is 19 now (2008). Will he be like his father and be willing to overlook this behavior in himself since he is willing to overlook it in his father? There is definitely damage here.

And lastly there’s my daughter. From the time she was an infant, she was “treated” to the sounds of her father and adult-sized brothers in screaming, swearing, fist-swinging brawls. I would leave the house with her when it happened but that doesn’t mean she didn’t still hear it.

At one point, she was standing at her father’s knees (she adores her father; he is the love of her life) while he was watching TV. Someone interrupted him with a question. He jumped to his feet and started screaming full-force, starting with the F-word. The sight of her shocked face will be forever etched in my mind.

Another vision stamped in my head happened after I had decided to get a divorce but before I left. He was bringing her in from outside and told her to go around the car one way but she went the other way (she had just turned 3). He started screaming at her for it. Not a simple redirection as might be appropriate if it even mattered. But full-on screaming at a 3-year-old for just walking one way when it was in his mind to go a different way – when it didn’t even matter.

Recently she was sick and had nightmares with the fever. In her nightmares, which now have her so terrified she will not sleep in her bed anymore, she says someone is screaming at her but she doesn’t know who it is. I wonder. But she adores her dad and asks frequently why I can’t love her daddy (this is the story he has told her, lovely man that he is). She will probably never understand.

But how much more scarred would she be if I stayed with him? By staying with her father I would also have given her the example of what type of man she should marry and how a man should treat her one day. Is that the life I want for her?

There is NO question in my mind. Not a single glimmer of a doubt. Yes, she is going to suffer because her parents are divorced. But compared to the damage of living with an abuser – no way.

And even for the boys who were adults or nearly so by the time I finally got a divorce – by getting a divorce I have taught them something, if they will choose to receive the lesson. God is a God of righteousness and all the other things I have written above. Those are all good reasons for what I have done – that’s what I want my children to learn by the fact I did get a divorce. Had I understood all this sooner I would have made the choice far sooner. But I didn’t and God gives grace for that, I have to believe.

The fact of the matter is this — the children of an abusive marriage are going to be hurt. It is up to us to choose whether we will have them see God’s truth or see us live a lie.

31 Responses

  1. You are stating as absolute fact that God does NOT hate divorce ….. and the Bible does NOT bear that out. You are also borrowing heavily about the MDR (marriage, divorce, and remarriage) issue from Stephen Gola from Divorce Hope. Now, I am not one of those theologians who cast away everything that Gola espouses ….. but he causes one to shake their head over some of his exegesis of Scripture. Many reputable theologians reject his platform and with good cause.

    It has been my experience that many who seek a divorce for any reason ….. “trecherous divorce” as you term it …. use Gola to validate their unwillingness to reconcile …. even when the offending spouse has clearly repented and the church authorities counsel reconciliation. I have issues with usinbg Gola’s interpretation to validate BIBLICALLY ALLOWED divorce, but far too many use him to validate their own sin and selfishness. Be very careful about whom you use for inspiration, Danni. Gola simply doesn’t have a good reputation amongst most evangelicals ….. me included.

    Secondly, if you are putting yourself out there as saying that one spouse is completely innocent in divorce, you are sadly mistaken. No one is 100% innocent is a divorce. Even the one who has been abused ….. and that person quite often shows abusive tendencies of their own …. be it in other forms that the spouse they are brining the accusation against.

    The good thing about a properly run Matt. 18 process is that it focuses the light on BOTH parties and BOTH of them are held up to needed corrections. This is why some will at times balk at participating in that process. They are very content to play the victim card but greatly resent it when the spotlight is cast on THEIR issues ….. and rest assured, they are issues within that person, too. The tendency is to delight when the process is used against the accused, but to claim the “system failed me” when needed reforms are pointed out to them, too.

    It takes two to reconcile, no doubt. It also takes two to break the bonds. Divorce is never a one-way event. The one doing the actual legal filing is quite often the one with the real issues.

    • Well, since I had never even heard of Gola until a few months ago, I could hardly call him inspiration. But, without going into depth, I can also see where you would consider him an unreliable source if he fails to be in agreement with the things you are saying on my blog. You will proceed to say the same things about me, correct? Because I cannot change my theology to agree with you when what you are saying is in direct opposition to what God has plainly taught me. Sorry, I only have one master.

      And as I said before, yes, I will continue to say that one party can be 100% innocent in a divorce. To say otherwise is to tell victims they are to blame for their abuse – which is not only foolish, the church then becomes an abuser – one of the specific things I am attempting to raise awareness of on this blog.

      It does not take two to break a marriage – one can destroy it single handedly. Does it take two to commit adultery? That is as patently ridiculous as saying it takes both parties for one spouse to kill the other.

      If it took two to break the bonds – then you would have to be saying that God sinned in divorcing Israel. I’m definitely not willing to say that.

      You are absolutely wrong about this.

      — Danni

    • Yes, I am saying that God does not say He hates “divorce” = He is saying He hates “putting away.” Which may perhaps be splitting hairs – but there is an issue of the heart.

      The only reason I’m making that distinction is to put the fault where it belongs – God hates the action of putting away – putting the responsibility on the shoulders of the one who does the putting away. That is the person who violates the covenant, not necessarily on the one who gets a legal document publically acknowledging the fact which has existed in reality for some time.

      At the same time, the Mal. 2 passage can also be interpreted using the word divorce, understanding that God sees a distinction between treacherous and disciplinary divorce. In which case, it would be helpful to understand that God hates treachery. He obviously does not hate one who gets a divorce, even while finding divorce itself repugnant (who wouldn’t – I hate it myself!), because He did it!

      — Danni

  2. Sorry for the bad spellings …… someday I’ll learn to slow down. Is there an edit feature here, Danni?

  3. Danni, please understand why I must remain nuetral when first faced with an allegation of abuse …. unless, of course, the evidence is clearly there at the initial contact.

    Are you honestly sitting there and telling me you had absolutely NO responsibility for the loss of your marriage? Aside from your abuse? Did you ever, ever lay a hand on your husband in anger? Did you ever, ever disrespect him to his face or behind his back? Did you ever, ever treat him disrespectfully in front of the children? Did you ever, ever withhold sex as a means of “punishment?” Did you ever, ever question his role as head of household? Did you ever, ever secondguess a decision he made, unless it was a clear violation of Scripture? Did you ever, ever abuse him emotionally/verbally?

    If you can honestly answer “no” to every one of these …… then you are indeed a very, very rare exception.

    • I have persistently said you should remain neutral. I haven’t ever said anything other than that. I have reinforced this each time you have said it.

      And I also repeat, just for the record – you can remain neutral while affirming to each party that you want to help resolve the situation, and keep all parties safe.

      We need to separate the question of neutrality from the question of whether both parties are “at fault” in the failure of any marriage.

      Would you say that both parties are at fault if one commits adultery? Would you say that God was “at fault” in divorcing Israel? Where is the logic in stating both are at fault if one commits abuse?

      As I have said previously, there are none of us who are perfect in our marriages. Are you? Have you ever disrespected your spouse? Have you ever wronged your wife? But has she ever dragged your “stuff” before everyone you know at church, year after year after year?

      Plus my husband piled on a whole host of really interesting-sounding false allegations. He figured out he could keep them hopping for many months just by throwing out in the first session (with tears in his eyes – he could produce tears on demand like a magician, which got them every time) that I had been molested as a child and that my father had “arranged” our marriage. Automatically, all eyes were on how screwed up I must be, and therefore, bless that man, he must be having to put up with all kinds of horrible things. And since they believed your both sides of the bologna philosophy, they were off and running, and before we could even get started on any reality (including his abuse) I would have to spend months proving to them that these issues were resolved through counseling and the Word long ago – and in the process have to dredge through my sexual abuse yet again with more new strangers with a fine-toothed comb. Ah yes, the abuser using the church to abuse his victim again! See how easily it is done?

      But to directly answer your question, I was certainly not perfect in my marriage. And I also went to him and apologized to him, often, often, often whenever and wherever I sinned and I knew I had done so – even in the face of his violence, and knowing it was giving him fuel with which to further abuse me. (And I actually didn’t do all those things, but I’m not going to go down the list.) No, I did not abuse him – verbally, physically or otherwise.

      The heart of the matter is this — my heart was to do righteousness, I was always willing to evaluate my heart, and be evaluated. I submitted to evaluation every time – until the very last time when God had said “enough.” This was after 10 years from the first time I went to my church — most definitely more than enough time for any Mt. 18 process to have been followed and completed. By that time my health was literally in the balance and I knew I didn’t have any more time left.

      You are missing this important distinction – which I have observed in others. There is a difference between being an imperfect Christian who is seeking to walk in obedience and unity in their marriage — and an abuser who has broken covenant. You can’t put those two on an even playing field and say they are both “equally” at fault. They are entirely two different things. One is a believer and, according to the Word, the second is an unbeliever, for one thing.

      In your scenario, a believer could do every single thing humanly possible to walk in obedience and you would still find fault. Who gets to find that kind of fault with you? How would you feel about having your private life publically scrutinized under the same microscope – for years. And then be told – if you had a partner who chose to live in unrepentant rebellion – that you are to blame? Why do you think this is logical? God does not have such a warped standard of righteousness that lays judgment at one’s door for another’s offenses, when our own heart is as true before Him as we know to live. Does a father punish a child who is honestly being obedient as fully as he knows to be, in all ways, and coming to that father every day and asking him to tell the child what else he wants the child to correct? But the church is saying that child is “at fault” for the failure of his/her marriage?

      I can’t vouch for the state of every other person who has walked out this process. I know not everyone has walked it out that far on their face. But I also know others have done so and had the same experience I have. And I know if someone else just like me were dealing with you, they would be hearing the same thing I did – you are at fault too. And that is wrong.

      — Danni

  4. Wow, I’m seeing some wording in Mr. Promise Keeper’s that smack of abusive-speak. If/then statements, even coupled with “You” statements. (“If you are stating….then you are sadly mistaken…” Generalizing: “Divorce is *never* a one-way event.”

    Makes me wonder if he himself has been abusive to a former partner and doesn’t realize it.

    • 😉 You are not the only one to make that observation… Those who are very familiar with abuse and abusers can recognise some extremely familiar patterns of thought and behavior in Happy’s posts.

      What is recognizable at the same time, however, is that Happy is also a typical clergy counselor, with a typical understanding of abuse issues within the church. That should raise some obvious questions in people’s minds.

      — Danni

  5. It is simply amazing to see the light come on:

    Typical is an understatement.

  6. As a mother of the child of a narcissist, I have (heavy sigh) lived with a lot of narcissism. I didn’t know the label and I didn’t need to, to survive. I bless God for that. I am not sure how my mum made it, all I can fathom is God, too (she finally started working through her issues when she started reading the Word). She can never fess up to things she did with me, and I had to accept that. However, I can forgive her for that and learn never to put myself in that situation again.

    My spouse was very abusive to me. Male or female really matters not. Abuse is never acceptable or o.k. Additionally, there are varying degrees of abuse, but still, it is never o.k. The one thing I didn’t notice in your article was that what classifies an abuser is a repeated, CONSISTENT, cycle of abuse. Not one time.

    Yes, you can do damage to your spouse or others and they can do it to you. But one time when you lost your cool doesn’t ALWAYS make one an abuser. It’s a cycle and like it or lump it, there is a studied and well proven cycle to it that you can often follow. (There are usually exceptions to every rule so I’m not laying a bunch of disclaimers).

    When I left the spouse the first time, it was never supposed to be permanent but my spouse became so manipulative and abusive that they contacted every friend, family member and colleague and claimed that I had run off! It only went downhill from there as every resource we shared as a couple was moved to only their name and resources were denied to me and later, to our children as a means to make me return. This was abusive and neglectful. Abusive because it was conscious as a means of control that led to physical, emotional, spiritual and mental damage to myself and the children. Neglectful because it caused much hardship to befall all of us, so that my spouse could have what they wanted.

    The spouse refused the church until the divorce was filed, at which point it was too late. For years this spouse terrorized me as they dragged our court battle out for four years on a six month marriage. It costs our children’s college tuition and all savings and indebted me for years to come. I had relinquished my rights to nearly everything before then. This same person decided to advise the youngest child born after the divorce was filed, that I left and how i destroyed what God put together – effectively forcing that child to go through the pain and anguish of divorce when they would have otherwise been saved the majority of heartache.

    This is not a male-female issue. It’s a person-person issue. It’s a God-us issue. He is perfect, we aren’t. But imperfection is natural and something we are to fight against in ourselves and others in a loving way. Abuse is, in itself, not loving. It is hateful, controlling, manipulative and to cause pain.

    I do believe that God wanted me to rejoin with my spouse. The reason was not exactly clear but I trusted God inherently as I did not trust this spouse. I was right not to trust this spouse. The abuse was far worse this time, ten years later and this spouse had gotten much wiser about how to mask their abuse. It escalated, too.

    I got out of it, but not after a year of trauma to myself and the kids. We’re waiting for God’s timeline in regards to filing the divorce but after telling me to “carry the cross” for my spouse, FINALLY the church has seen my spouse’s behavior for what it is and is no longer pushing us to accept it. It took the Church many months to see the behavior, to not second guess themselves based on the very well-rehearsed arguments my spouse had and for them to see that when they gave the spouse instructions, though they agreed with them and even when they didn’t, the spouse would not heed.

    Thankfully, though terribly afraid that the spouse would win yet again and the Church would try to force me back to my spouse, the Church has finally seen the manipulations. Remember that initially, the Church had seen PHOTOS of the marks left on our children from this person and seen e-mails touting how proper this behavior was while landing ALL FAULT at the children’s and my feet and accepting no responsibility at onset.

    I was patient, following God as much as I could. Was I perfect, in NO WAY. Were there times I failed my spouse and was disrespectful? Definitely and I am ashamed to admit it but I also publicly and privately apologized and worked on change. That is how to tell if someone is repentant, lasting change and a desire to no longer hide or control. The spouse, unfortunately, is escalating. I hope that the future spouse or those surrounded with this ‘Christian’ person does not suffer as we did. To this day, when I read the stories of other estranged spouses, I fear for our lives, as I have watched the very unreal escalations.

    I love http://www.troubledwith.org but they have faults, I also love Focus Ministries. I really love Focus, though based out of Chicago, because they are very supportive and really delve into the issues and the support that is required in Christianity.

    Good luck to you, abusers and the abused and good luck to you, Fellowship, who must find your ways through the mazes.

    • You are exactly right about the cycle pattern – I have written about that elsewhere. The persistent, consistent, unrepentant behavior is the qualifier, not a one-off incident. The same is true about the difference between your attitude and the abuser’s. I experienced that, too. A party who is committed to the relationship, oneness, and their relationship with God will repent and be conformed by God. An abuser never does.

      — Danni

  7. How about…..this “chritainese”
    Loving your husband with the “agape” love that Christ intended.
    Or… God is working on him……

    • Oh, this is a good one. And expresses a gross lack of spiritual understanding.

      Look at the Word. Who is required to “love” in a marriage? The husband. He is the one who is supposed to be loving with the love Christ intended. In Christ’s model – we love Him because He first loved us. Our obedience to Christ is a byproduct of this love relationship (Jn. 13-16). So in Christ’s model the clear implication would be that we cannot “love” our husbands in this way if they do not love us first. Now, there’s a radical idea.

      If the husband does not love with Christ’s love, we have to make some hard choices. I cannot “love” my husband more than I love my God. That is idolatry. So I cannot enable him to continue in egregious sin – sin that the Word says makes all his prayers in vain, among other things – which would be a violation of my command to love God first.

      And, of course, God is working on him. No one said He wasn’t! But that husband is in rebellion against God. And there are consequences for that. As long as this state persists – regardless of what he may say to the contrary – my first responsibility is always to walk in obedience to God myself. That spouse must experience the consequences of his choices — it is not my place to get in the middle of them, hinder them, or make them my own by getting in his boat with him.

      — Danni

  8. Thanks for the response. It is very helpful.
    In Christ,

  9. I am behind in reading a bit lately…but why spend any time responding to HPK’s statements. He isn’t discussing anything with us..just lecturing. Trying to tell us how it is…and I would rather just ignore it.

    Another comment about submission….before I married my spouse, we were brother and sister in the Lord. God asks that we submit to each other as brother and sister in the LOrd. That never changed when we got married and I am sure tired of people saying that once you are married, the husband does not need to submit/respect his wife, just love her. What kind of nonsense is that? And the wife just needs to respect her husband. Does marriage nulify the earlier relationship? I don’t think so.

    This isn’ to criticize anyone…just something that I have found very troubling and inconsistent with scripture.

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